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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 19:49:02 GMT 10
I don't like horns, so I'm trying to breed them out. It's my opinion, and my right, so if it offends you please steer (ahaha) away from this thread.
In the interim, of breeding them out (plus this year I've at best got a 50% chance of getting polled/scurred) there is the likelihood of getting horns. But what to do with horns. I did a terrible job of trying to dehorn my first lot (they were too old, and I was too inexperienced) which I rectified by getting the vet in to do it right.
This year I want to be more prepared, and I was thinking of doing the gas thing, but I honestly don't think I could go through with it. It would be the longest 14 seconds of my life, let alone the poor calf. And what if I got it wrong! My WORST thought is what if I was de (or dis?) budded a calf who was polled! arrrggghhh the nightmares.
So! I was thinking of either the cream OR getting the vet in to do the gassing with drugs. The former may have problems accessing the cream in Australia, the latter is all about timing (or is it?), getting the vet out within a week of birth (don't know why I think they have to come out within a week??)
What are your plans? How do you tell the calf is horned (if you have the possibility it could be polled/scurred)? |
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dexteraddict
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Resides in:: Near Braidwood NSW
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Post by dexteraddict on Oct 22, 2014 6:57:29 GMT 10
We breed and proudly display horns - as you know. Also we havent had a home balk at the idea of the horns either so one option is leave the horns as is and be really strict in your breeding program by re homing any who end up displaying their horns. There are lots of available homes around us. Maybe spend a little more time with those horned in your herd and ensure they are calm, quiet, play with their udders etc and soon you wont have enough moos for interested homes. I would even consider taking the homozygous horned girls out of your herd or otherwise you it may take you ages trying to have a homozygous Polled herd. Rawlings stud: Marg would be better suited to give you an approximate and more detail on that. You have a beautiful Polled boy – did you have him tested to see if he was homozygous Polled? Another choice is grab those hours-old tail hairs and send them same day to Queensland or UCD (University of California). Its 5-6 days to get to UCD and the results are guaranteed in your inbox in 4-5 days. We personally have results within 2-3 days. So timing wise that would put calf nearer the 2 weeks of age but at least you would definitely know those who will have horns. I don’t know if this has an impact on when the process should be done. I thought you could get the paste here in Australia?! If not, could it be imported? Gosh they seem to have the other ‘tools of the horror’ available here. (Slap on hand – that wasn’t nice  but we are horn-lovers so I had to put in at least one little snip ) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 8:18:14 GMT 10
Squarepeg, the dehorning paste in Australia is illegal. It is available to purchase, but only in a few places.
You have to be very careful when you use it, as how it works is by burning the tissue, and if it were to get on any other places other than where you want it, it will burn, eg if it were to get on elsewhere on the face, the eyes, or on the mothers udder. It certainly is less confronting to the person to use, but don't think that it is any less painful for the animal, it still hurts. I have seen many failed attempts of dehorning with the paste, and what results are ugly deformed horns.
We burn off the buds at one week old with an electric burner, we were taught by our vet (who by the way had worked in NZ dairies for some time so was very familiar with the disbudder) how to do it as quickly and painlessly as possible, and how to do a good fail proof job.
The calves are quickly back with their mothers, wandering off up the paddock.
Perhaps you could get your vet out to give you a lesson in how to use the disbudder, if he/she is familiar with using one. To do cattle older than this becomes more distressing for both the animal and the person doing it.
When you become familiar with polled calves you will see that there is a difference between them and horned calves, you can usually tell when they are first born, so no chance of "disbudding" a polled calf.
Otherwise what you can do is slaughter all with horns, retaining only the polled, or, your other alternative is to purchase a homozygous polled bull, and then everything has to be polled.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 10:48:56 GMT 10
Settle guys, for us it was starting with horned animals as that was what we had and working towards the goal of a totally polled herd. It does not mean I do not keep horned animals, if they are structurally better than a homozygous polled animal I choose the better animal. We are in the envious position of having genetics from quite a few different homozygous polled bulls. So polled calves are only one generation away. The best advice I can give you is look to keep a herd of quality Dexters firstly, then to have the quality follow through to selective breed for polling. It is not easy combining the two but we have been quite successful, not loosing sight of your goal and by culling anything which did not make the high standards we set. Know your animals faults, and by the way they all have them, looking for matings which will keep you moving forward. I am happy to offer advice if you don't mind honest opinions, not all genetics work well together but we have to start somewhere and work hard to improve the breed, Polling for us is the way of the future, and to remove our horns we use homozygous polled bulls. Marg Rawlings www.dexterbeef.com.au |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 11:39:56 GMT 10
Hi Marg,
all great advice, and no doubt if she talks with you she can come up with a plan of action for the future, but it still doesn't help squarepeg deal with the cattle that she has being born with horns, if she is wanting to keep them but not with the horns.
I think that probably her best option would be to disbud at 1 week old with a hot iron.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 12:53:34 GMT 10
Thanks all. We do have a heterozygous (apologies for spelling!) polled bull, one heterozygous polled/scurred cow, one homozygous and the rest horned. Of course we steered our little homozygous bull in our first calving session (rookies very bad error) but we move on. I will talk with our vet and see if he has used the disbudders. I didn't realise the paste was illegal, thanks Louise! As I said, our dream would be that I don't have to worry about it at all and the bull has passed on the polled gene to the calves, but I unfortunately don't live in Utopia! I hear what you are saying donna and I appreciate your comments, I guess it's just not where we are at as a stud. I have used the USA testing to determine the bull's heterozygous status, but haven't tested the cows admittedly. Good idea though, thanks. They're due for their 5-in-1 in December so I'll pull hairs then too. What burner do you have Louise and how do you "tell" whether the calf is horned or not? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 21:34:39 GMT 10
Squarepeg, we have 2 disbudding irons, one a gas, Portasol, and the other electric. The electric one is old we have had it for about 14 years, I am not sure of the brand but it does have Tecnall on a sticker on the side. It is very reliable, and we have never had a problem with it. The cup is quite large, I think it a goat one, about 2cm. We prefer it that way as you get the whole bud. We don't have electricity down at the old dairy where we do the dehorning, but have a large generator for electricity. There is a distinct difference between the head shape and the way the hair grows between horned and polled calves. The polled have a rounded shape to their heads and will feel smooth and flat flat when you feel their heads, no sign of the little bud, the hair grows flat against the skull. In horned calves you will feel the buds in bull calves straight away, in heifers they take a little longer, the horns are slower developing. There will be a little patch of skin where there is no hair where the bud is. Also the hair will have a little kick to it at the horn bud, it doesn't lay flat. Squarepeg, I have sent you a private message with more info |
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John
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Resides in:: Victoria
Stud Prefix:: Elgin Park
DCAI #: 10153
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Post by John on Oct 24, 2014 10:52:36 GMT 10
We use a Portasol gas disbudder (on our second one now after quite a number of years). We like to wait until all the calves are born which means some can be six or seven weeks old when being done.
I don't have any concerns about personal injury from horns but cattle will use them on each other if in a confined area together. Have seen first hand the damage that can be done with horns when trying to move 3 or 4 together up a race.
If we have to work in the yards with our horned animals we get them in individually which can be a nuisance if you're trying to process 50 or 60 animals.
Also, abattoirs and sale yards don't like to deal with horned cattle because of bruising issues with meat etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 20:29:09 GMT 10
We use a Portasol gas disbudder (on our second one now after quite a number of years). We like to wait until all the calves are born. LOL john I skipped a few words in your post and thought " well of course you have to wait until they are born!!" Although I mentioned this task to my husband and he asked me when I thought we should do this. "Oh next week" I said (despite none of our calves having yet been born) "ok" he says "do we just get them in the the yards?" "Yes" says I, "and we just put the debudder up the vagina of the cow and do it in there"!!!!! Not sure he appreciated my sarcasm! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 21:09:14 GMT 10
I don't have any concerns about personal injury from horns but cattle will use them on each other if in a confined area together. Have seen first hand the damage that can be done with horns when trying to move 3 or 4 together up a race. John, you have seen what damage can happen with cattle with horns, but can you imagine what can also happen to people? I work in the public hospital system and have been involved in the care of 2 people who have come off worse for wear with cattle horns. Both were surgical emergencies and both were very lucky to survive, only thanks to a great medical care system and surgical team. From their history's both( both men) were working cattle in the yards and were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. One animal being argy bargy pushing another animal around resulted in their injuries. Both were bleeding out internally from their injuries. So both were accidents, not intentional on the cattle involved. The first had a ruptured spleen, was close enough to our hospital (major)for road transport and was rushed straight to theatre. He had a splenectomy and used a copious amount of blood products, which fortunately we had sufficient available for him. The other, was extremely fortunate to survive. He was not close to our major hospital, he had to be airlifted out from down the coast to us. Our retrieval chopper has blood on board for emergencies, but he used that well before he arrived at our hospital so was really in dire straits. He had a severely lacerated liver and was bleeding internally. He fortunately survived, again after emergency surgery and virtually depleting our blood bank completely.
Having seen what can happen with cattle horns certainly has convinced me that I don't ever want to put myself at risk of such injuries, as I am always working close and personal with my Dexters, as most of us do. My biggest fear with Dexters and their horns is that because of their small size their horns are pretty much level with a humans vital organs, so even if they were to swing around to swat a fly away, your belly is at their horn height.
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but we are horn-lovers so I had to put in at least one little snip 
